debate    The following is an exchange on tumblr between littlepumkinprincess and auntiewanda.  I have changed the formatting a bit for the sake of readability, but their words and ideas remain the same.  Many of the arguments that occur between gender critical feminists and trans-advocates play out in this exchange.  It is certainly not an exhaustive collection of all the point/counter-points that exist but rather it illustrates a cross-section of what many interactions happen to look like.  

Discussions of this nature tend to be controversial, so a reminder here to please be civil and respectful in the comment section.

    

  “I’m not advocating violence against TERF’s but I am saying y’all need to stop playing the victim when you’re named that because you treat transgender people like shit, you don’t need special treatment because people called you out on that.”

  The criteria for “treating like shit” seems to be “not agreeing with”.

  And by “not agreeing with” you mean misgendering them, mentally and physically abusing them, excluding them in feminism, denying them human rights.

  Okay, saying to a transwoman “I don’t agree you’re a woman” is physical abuse how? And also mental abuse how? Being upset at someone doesn’t automatically mean they’re mentally abusing you.

  I don’t exclude transgender people from feminism, I apply feminism to the concept the same way I do anything else, and it comes up sexist.

   Also how is not agreeing with someone that they are a thing they demonstrably aren’t a human rights issue? And why does it seem to be a double standard for transgender people? Or is Rachel Dolezal being mentally abused and denied human rights when people say she’s not what she claims?

   When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues. This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay, and just because you’re not doing it yourself doesn’t mean you’re not advocating that system.

How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.

Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are, so idk how you can even say demonstrably. It’s a human rights issue because they’re treated as lesser than: they’re getting murdered at large rates, for example. Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it. There’s no proven racial dysphoria. Transgender people are genuinely who they say they are. Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide. Even IF you don’t believe them why does that mean you get to treat them like shit? I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way. That’s the same shit pro lifers do.

> When you say a transwoman isn’t a woman this leads people to believe it’s a ‘man in disguise’ and they need to protect poor women from them! See: transgender bathroom issues.

  The issue with codifying use of “preferred” bathrooms, changing facilities etc. into law is more if the only criteria for a biologically male person to gain access to a female designated facility is for him to say “I am a woman” you’re exposing women to increased risk of predators.

 Such as in the Christopher Hambrook case where a serial rapist gained access to two women’s shelters for prolong periods of time and sexually assaulted two women (that we know of) and all he had to do was claim to be a transwoman and they could not legally turn him away.

 Plenty of transwomen who “just need to pee” already do so, are in and out of the women’s restroom with no issue. Why the hell should a legal loophole be created for predators to exploit?

> This is the same belief system that allows people to think that physical abuse is okay,

That’s a pretty big leap in logic there.

> How is demanding equal rights for genders sexist? Seeing as they’re women, I don’t see how it’s sexist considering feminism is the equality of men and women.

Transgender is a sexist concept in that it that operates on the belief that the socially constructed gender roles for the sexes are inherent to the sexes.

> Gender dysphoria has proven that trans people are what they say they are

How? People sincerely believe things that aren’t true all the time.

> so idk how you can even say demonstrably

It’s pretty easy to prove which sex someone is.

> Rachel is not mentally ill, she does it to cheat a system that’s there to help people who need it

   Rachel Dolezal claims she’s always felt like she’s black, ever since she was a child. She identifies as black, she says what she does isn’t blackface. She says whiteness doesn’t describe her. So is she mentally ill or is her identity authentic? I mean she managed to become head of a local NAACP branch before she was discovered to be transethnic.

> Not to mention many parents try to ‘fix’ it by forcing them to be who they don’t feel they are and it leads to depression and suicide.

  And many parents try to “fix” it by only allowing their children to play with or wear things stereotypically associated with the opposite sex after they take their kid to a therapist who tells them their kid is actually the opposite sex in their brain, which is something completely unproven.

> I’m just curious, like you seem to believe just because you don’t agree with their lifestyle means you get to treat them like that when they aren’t harming anyone by living that way.

  And what am I supposed to do? Lie about my viewpoint? Say “oh yes dear, you’re absolutely a woman, never mind you’re offending me with the stereotypical sexist ideas you have of what a woman even is.”

[Found on Not Your Safe Space]

 

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