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This is a funny/not funny example of what women are faced with when it comes to the circumstances surrounding rape and sexual assault. Kinda sounds like a crummy deal doesn’t it? So, if it is improper when it comes to robbery, why is it ‘a-okay’ with rape?
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6 comments
August 1, 2016 at 5:17 am
roughseasinthemed
I quite like that. It’s only by drawing different parallels that the message gets home. Well, occasionally.
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August 1, 2016 at 12:38 pm
Hibabe
Important link. Must watch on the subject of drunk rape.
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August 1, 2016 at 1:12 pm
robert browning
The Baroness von Sketch tv show maybe could open some eyes w this concept.
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August 1, 2016 at 5:00 pm
Zachary
Your scenario doesn’t really work well though. In your scenario, he says “no.”
I think everyone’s on board with the idea that if a girl says no, that’s rape, and ignoring a “no” means you’re one of the worst of the worst.
Well- everyone but the rapist, who will no doubt say anything to get away with it, because that’s how court works.
When most of us engage in this debate as a debate- rather than as a lecture- it’s not in response to such a clear cut case.
So, back to your example:
What if he didn’t say no? What if he invited you to his house and asked you to take the stuff, as a gift, because he liked you?
Is it still theft?
We don’t have a legal threshold for drunken gift-giving turning into theft… We do for drunken sex turning into rape, but… Well. Now we’re relying on the ability to tell a drunken yes apart from a sober yes…
Which isn’t as cut and dry, unfortunately.
Unlike in your example- there is room for confusion… If someone is barely intoxicated, or just holds their liquor really well, or if both parties are intoxicated, the same alcohol that impairs consent impairs the ability to judge it, and so on.
If anyone thinks “no means yes”… They’re monsters.
But that’s not the debate anyone’s having.
The debate people are having is about the muddier areas of “saying yes but meaning no” or “saying yes when you legally can’t”… Which can be traumatic without being crimes, depending entirely on intent and subjective experiences that may not match up between the two parties…
…in which case, in the absence of intent to commit a crime or gross negligence, in the absence of clear physical evidence that one story is objectively incorrect… The courts have an obligation to take a pass.
It sucks for the person who came away traumatized and seeking justice… I know. I’m a sexual assault survivor who will never see justice, myself.
But I can still find healing, so… There’s that.
Much love.
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August 3, 2016 at 1:55 am
Sha'Tara
I think it’s a great analogy and an analogy is just that. It’s not a legal document, just an image portraying a very serious problem from a different perspective. It clarifies how “no” means “maybe” and sometimes it means “yes” but it never really means just “no” because “no” is ambiguous. The guy with the expensive shit wouldn’t even have to be drunk at all, just in a social and power play bind. Maybe he likes me and his “no” when I take his shit isn’t going to be strong enough to stop me. Or maybe I scare him and his “no” is kind of whiny, and there’s a muted “please” at the end, which means it’s not emphatic enough and it entitles me to his shit. Then there’s him letting me in his apartment where so much of his expensive shit is. Well, what’s that if not an invitation to help myself? Or maybe he’s let me buy him dinner, take him to an expensive club, a play and maybe when it got really late he went along when I said, just come to my place and you can sleep on the couch. There now, you see? Doesn’t that entitle me to something in return? He’s got that expensive shit and I want it and he owes me, so I just take it. Fair exchange is all.
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August 5, 2016 at 7:51 pm
Zach Webb
No never means maybe. No never means yes. No is never ambiguous.
Anyone who thinks that is, without a doubt, a monster, as I said before.
And like I said before, if you are a monster, and get caught, you’ll say anything to get away with it… because that’s monsters for you. If mass murderers can be reliably expected to make excuses for killing dozens, hundreds, millions of people… a rapist claiming that the no was ambiguous doesn’t tell us shit about society, or the victim. It tells us that sociopaths will say anything.
And the REAL debate going on over Rape Culture right now isn’t about “Whether No Means Yes”… it’s about “Whether Yes is Even Good Enough.”
As for your examples:
Even “No, please” is still indistinguishably, inarguably no. If the hypothetical rapist/robber hears that, and thinks it’s a yes, they’re monsters. No one thinks otherwise.
Even responding to “No, please” with bargaining is a grey area at best… and only grey, because we accept or even encourage that behavior in almost any other environment.
So… let’s say you start bargaining with the guy… and he wants you gone so badly that he doesn’t just say yes, he writes you a check and stuffs it in your pocket so you’ll leave.
You never threaten him, you just… keep asking until he says “Here’s my money, take it.”
Is it still robbery? Is it still a crime?
Maybe? I mean- it’s definitely not robbery anymore… there was no violence, no deception, and you were given the money… it might not even qualify as a con, legally. Hell… if he never asked you to leave, it’s not even trespassing.
We regularly hold people responsible for following through on bad contracts… Casinos use every trick in the book to get people to make bad bets. They disorient you with lights, sounds, alcohol. They play every psychological trick in the book short of outright lying about the odds at the table… and sometimes even do that. Even the use of chips is meant to make you disassociate from the loss of real money. It is every kind of shady I can possibly imagine… and I know, because I used to work at one- my job was making sure they didn’t cross any legal lines, so I know ALL the tricks.
But ultimately, you make the bet. They never force you, never threaten you. You consent. You don’t get to decide after the fact that the bet wasn’t real.
By the same token… while bargaining or pressuring someone into sex is almost certainly sexual harassment, it’s not rape.
And I don’t say that as someone cold, calloused, and privileged.
I say that as someone who’s been on the bad end of that stick, several times. Who’s been harassed, assaulted, molested, drugged and raped.
Now- your other scenario, getting invited back, and just… taking stuff without asking? Oh yeah. Definitely a crime.
And… you know what? So is sex with someone who’s unconscious or visibly incapacitated. Anyone who does that? Also a monster. See above.
That said, I’ve dealt with plenty of drunks in my life. Some are pretty bloody obvious, others pretty good actors.
If I can’t tell that you’re incapacitated, either because you’re faking it with the best, or because I’m also incapacitated… then… well? Still a crime?
For that matter… what of fear?
What if a woman fears all mean so deeply, so severely, that she always says yes -enthusiastically- under the presumption that anything else will result in her immediate murder?
If I ask her out to dinner, and then home, and then bed… when she enthusiastically, convincingly says yes to each… am I a rapist for… believing her?
If this is rape culture, it seems like the only way to be safe from accidentally raping someone is to constantly assume the worst… in which case, I’m treating them like children who can’t make their own decisions.
That doesn’t seem ideal.
Maybe we need to make room for at least SOME nuance in this debate. Some shades of grey, where bad things happen without being caused by bad people, and there is no good answer but to try and offer healing and support, rather than fixating on black-and-white justice as if it always works. It does, often enough… just not always.
Isn’t healing more important anyway?
As always, much love. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these issues… I’m as happy learning something new as I am convincing someone else to broaden their view.
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