Catcalling – Just don’t.
December 28, 2015 in Feminism | Tags: Feminism, Patriarchy, Sexism | by The Arbourist
Canadian cogitations about politics, social issues, and science. Vituperation optional.
Religion. Politics. Life.
Solve ALL the Problems
Art, health, civilizations, photography, nature, books, recipes, etc.
Independent source for the top stories in worldwide gender identity news
LESBIAN SF & FANTASY WRITER, & ADVENTURER
A fine WordPress.com site
herstory. poetry. recipes. rants.
Communications, politics, peace and justice
Transgender Teacher and Journalist
Conceptual spaces: politics, philosophy, art, literature, religion, cultural history
Loving, Growing, Being
A topnotch WordPress.com site
Life After an Emotionally Abusive Relationship
No product, no face paint. I am enough.
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Observations and analysis on survival, love and struggle
the feminist exhibition space at the university of alberta
About gender, identity, parenting and containing multitudes
Spreading the dangerous disease of radical feminism
Not Afraid Of Virginia Woolf
The Evolution Will Not BeTelevised
writer, doctor, wearer of many hats
Teaching Artist/ Progressive Educator
Identifying as female since the dawn of time.
A blog by Helen Saxby
A blog in support of Helen Steel
Where media credibility has been reborn.
Memoirs of a Butch Lesbian
Radical Feminism Discourse
deconstructing identity and culture
Fighting For Female Liberation from Patriarchy
Politics, things that make you think, and recreational breaks
cranky. joyful. radical. funny. feminist.
Movement for the Abolition of Prostitution
These are the best links shared by people working with WordPress
Gender is the Problem, Not the Solution
Peak Trans and other feminist topics
if you don't like the news, make some of your own
Musing over important things. More questions than answers.
20 comments
December 28, 2015 at 5:13 am
carlalouise89
So on point!! Reblogging!
LikeLike
December 28, 2015 at 5:14 am
carlalouise89
Reblogged this on The Melodramatic Confessions of Carla Louise and commented:
I actually plan, in the future, to write my own personal blog on catcalling and street harassment (because I think it’s such an important issue). However, Dead Wild Roses’ meme is so on point I just had to share!
LikeLiked by 1 person
December 28, 2015 at 7:59 am
jasonjshaw
So if a guy is a misogynist for doing this, what is the word for a girl who does this to a guy?
LikeLike
December 28, 2015 at 7:01 pm
The Arbourist
@JJshaw
Hello Jason. That is a good question.
One of the ideas in radical feminism is that society as we know it today, has the structural features of what is called a Patriarchy – in not so many words – a society structured, geared toward and run by those of the male persuasion. One of the aspects of patriarchy is the gender roles and associated gender hierarchy that is enforced in society. Men as the default normal in society and women as the subservient or oppressed class. Others have called this aspect the difference between being a subject and authoring your own destiny and desires and being an object and having your desires imprinted upon oneself.
This subject/object duality like most class relations, makes catcalling almost exclusively a one way procedure. Certainly women can ‘catcall’ men, but men’s worth and value to patriarchal society are not dependent on external validation or how fuckable they are as men are subjects and can, in patriarchy, author their own destinies. Women, for the most part, do not have this luxury and much of their worth and related trajectories in society is determined by how others perceive them, in other words, being an object to be acted on and in this case having their fuckability rated by members of the class that do have societal authorship over their lives.
Another parallel example would be asking the question can black people be racist toward white people. The answer, of course, is that no they cannot because of the current state of the racial divide in the US. Said divide includes white dominance in positions of power and authority, control of the historical narrative and again, like men, white being the approved “normal default state” in society.
So can a black person make racial statements about whites – absolutely. Does said persons statements have the structural weight of society and the dominant elites behind it, not even a little bit.
Hope that helps. :)
LikeLiked by 1 person
December 28, 2015 at 7:28 pm
jasonjshaw
That seems a bit of a one-way street way of looking at things. At what point do things shift back to being about equality (as what feminism used to be about) and recognizing that it can be problematic in both directions?
Sounds like a bit of a broad stroke viewpoint as not every situation fits that stereotype.
LikeLike
December 28, 2015 at 8:48 pm
The Arbourist
@JJ Shaw
Class analysis is a useful tool for looking at how society works. :)
You have it backwards. You see, feminism in the second wave was about female liberation from the oppressive structures of society.
The quest for ‘equality’ as some of the 3rd wave feminsts are trying for is a Pyrrhic achievement at best, because as mentioned in a near constant theme here at DWR, that equality without justice is bunk. The playing field is so unequal right now that any attempts at equality really miss the point.
Except that one class of people still has the tacit approval of society, whereas the other way does not. So, yes equally bad, but the results are different depending on who is doing the catcalling.
Generalizations are like that. But, even glancing at my blog side bar – the anecdotal experiences of women are a testament to the unequal playing field that exists in our society.
LikeLike
December 28, 2015 at 9:34 pm
jasonjshaw
The playing field is so unequal right now?
I know there has been an increase of playing the victim card for personal gain in feminism these days, I’d say that’s a sign that things aren’t so unequal as they once were. Certainly there are still significant inequalities, but the balance of things has been becoming much less of a dramatic difference.
It’s a trajectory that hopefully can be maintained, but attacking the problem too overbearingly and one-sidedly risks trivializing any remaining inequalities.
LikeLike
December 29, 2015 at 11:00 am
The Arbourist
@JJshaw
Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean that it does not exist. Half the population gets to play by a different set of rules than dudes. It makes their experiences in society much different than what dudes experience.
I’m not sure what that means. The similarity to that statement I often see is from white people when talking about black people and their politics when they “play the race card” in a discussion. How can being enslaved and discriminated for centuries NOT have bearing on the current situation?
Your assessment is based on your perceptions. It might be informative to wait what the people in the oppressed class have to say about ‘things getting better’ before we call things better or improved.
I’m not sure I can recall the success rate of any minority group that agitates for change in society politely.
LikeLike
December 29, 2015 at 7:51 pm
jasonjshaw
If it’s “so unequal right now”, then what was it 100+ years ago when more basic rights weren’t allowed for women? The problems today are nuances in comparison.
“I’m not sure I can recall the success rate of any minority group that agitates for change in society politely.”
It all depends on how reasonable the changes sought are. Does this mean you approve of the high levels of agitations for change by so-called “pro-lifers”? I don’t agree with it in either case. If some areas of logic are being ignored in order to push an ideology, it is a problem.
Quite the irony in the way you write off my point of view when you are advocating for points of view of others (women) to not be written off.
… and this is coming from an advocate for equality, and I especially do want to see more women in integral positions in society. A significant amount of the modern feminism I’ve seen seems more religion-like than actually socially progressive. The stronger the emphasis on “the patriarchy”, the more religion-like the feminism seems to be.
I personally feel a more support and encouragement-based approach with actual realistic goals serves women (and any oppressed group) far better, with noise being made when people are standing in the way of such realistic goals.
LikeLike
December 30, 2015 at 2:17 pm
The Arbourist
@JJshaw
If one were to look at this statement it could be interpreted as dictating how women should feel about their current state in patriarchy. Another variation here, is to point to another part of the world, say one that still endorses the practices of female genital mutilation and then say well that doesn’t happen here *you* should be happy with what got.
And therein lies the problem with members of the dominant class declaring when the oppressed class has done its job and won its victories. The priorities of the dominant class tend erase the actual struggle of the oppressed. I’m pretty sure you’re not trying to pull the Mission Accomplished a la GW Bush, but one should be wary of the possibility, and thus my previous mention of that feminism’s work will be done when women say it is done.
This seems to be a bit of false equivalence as the goals of anti-choicers and feminists are almost completely diametrically opposed. I do not support their position, but they certainly have a right to express their opinion, as horrendous as it is.
Is it? How accurate has american white history been with regards to the genocides perpetrated in founding that nation? Why do we hear so much about, and study, Custards Last Stand and get, at best only a footnote about the Trail of Tears? Your statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how history is reported and how societies work. Without the work of Native American people and scholars how equal would the historical treatment of these genocides be?
The idea that we are all, more or less, equal in society and that everyone has roughly the same experience is a happy-time fairytale white people tell themselves to cover/ignore the fact that society is geared around their wants, needs, and desires. We can talk more about ‘equality’ when walking while white means the same thing as walking while black – systemic differences such as these necessarily shape people’s experiences with society and how they deal with the problems of life.
I use the race analogy because somehow people who don’t get that women and men experience daily life differently seem to at least grasp the concept that race plays a large factor in their own experiences, and in light of the example, that their experiences are not the same as everyone else and therefore generalizations about how life is for others need to be carefully considered before being entered into the public sphere.
Are you feeling marginalized? Not being taken seriously? Welcome to the experience of those people whose race and class signifiers that happen to be not white and male. Now imagine this feeling is the feeling you get every. fucking. day. Is your perception of ‘equal’ in society going to be the same as someone who does have their opinion taken seriously and who isn’t written off in general every day?
I invite you to share examples so I can understand what you’re basing this statement on.
For women to be able to name their oppressors and the system that oppresses them is fundamental to what feminism is. Patriarchy is what oppresses women (and men) in society. I’m not seeing the religious parallels with what you’ve said so far.
What the fuck is a more support and encouragement-based approach? I’m curious now, because right now, the above statement is rings with the hollow vacuity of corporate zombie-speak. Should feminism, in your opinion, focus more on core-competencies while engaging with stakeholders to improve creative values, while leveraging social certitudes?
Please explain to me how dismantling patriarchal structures in society that oppress women is “standing in the way” of “realistic goals”. Because right now it sounds like your shields are up and you feel threatened about women who dare to challenge the status quo in society and who will generally cause shit-storm after shit-storm until things get better.
LikeLike
December 30, 2015 at 2:35 pm
carmen
I will also add that the reasons people cause shit-storms – and will continue to cause shit-storms – have much to do with the attitudes of people like Jason, which he is so generously displaying for us here on this thread.
LikeLiked by 2 people
December 30, 2015 at 2:48 pm
The Arbourist
@Carmen
Explaining Patriarchy to Entitled Fragile Dudes on the Internet – what could be more fun?
This time I tried not to be condescending, harsh, or judgemental. I made conscious choices to be charitable and understanding.
I’m reviewing the thread, the salient points about how society is structured and how that effects the people living in society in unique ways has been clearly stated.
What else does one do?
LikeLiked by 1 person
December 30, 2015 at 5:42 pm
jasonjshaw
You seem to have missed the part where I said something along the lines of how much I want to see women succeeding and having more prominent roles in society with less gender-related issues.
I want what you want, but I don’t want it the same way … so you turn to condemnation. Totally reeks of a religious tactic. Misogyny and Patriarchy are to feminism what Sin and Satan are to Christians. That’s why I say the more “patriarchy” is mentioned, the more religion-like the feminism is … always alluding to the boogeyman to instil fear of falling into its hands!
And it’s much more a divide-and-conquer mentality rather than a connect-and-build mentality. Always a great way for a movement to lose respectability to outsiders.
How about I give you an example of someone who I feel is approaching feminism in a positive, factual, and inclusive way?
Feminism needs to do a better job of embodying the sentiments of Emma Watson’s speech to the UN in this video. A focus on building connections and making things better I bet will go much further than playing the blame game and attacking those who see things differently.
LikeLike
December 30, 2015 at 9:37 pm
The Arbourist
@JJShaw
Tone Police, anyone?
LikeLike
December 30, 2015 at 9:42 pm
The Arbourist
@JJShaw
Well at least we are working toward similar goals. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
Putting patriarchy in scare quotes is a nice touch.
Perhaps. But somehow I don’t think playing nice is going to fix the systemic problems in society, patriarchy being the first and foremost one at that.
LikeLike
December 31, 2015 at 12:05 pm
jasonjshaw
Playing nice may not be enough, but I don’t think being vocal with a one-sided approach will do the trick either. Gender inequality has negative effects on BOTH genders. That I think is a very important part of the way Emma Watson presented it.
Also, constantly playing on a persecution complex can wear thin. If you think about racial issues in the US, it was those who rose above the oppression that became public figures and inspirations in breaking down those barriers from both sides. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems as though a strong majority of those remembered for helping make way for better racial equality were far more positive in their approach than they were negative about the way things had been.
LikeLike
December 31, 2015 at 3:40 pm
VR Kaine
I don’t agree with a lot of what Mr. Shaw is saying, but in my opinion he was on the mark with this portion of it:
“…you turn to condemnation. Totally reeks of a religious tactic. Misogyny and Patriarchy are to feminism what Sin and Satan are to Christians. That’s why I say the more “patriarchy” is mentioned, the more religion-like the feminism is … always alluding to the boogeyman to instil fear of falling into its hands!
And it’s much more a divide-and-conquer mentality rather than a connect-and-build mentality. Always a great way for a movement to lose respectability to outsiders.”
Granted, Misogyny and Patriarchy are real whereas “Sin” (capital S) and Satan are fairy tales, however I think Mr. Shaw’s point still holds – a lot of Feminists try and adopt the same tactics they say they hate, making much of what they do not only cultish, but also divisive and even hypocritical as well. And all of it does lose credibility with outsiders. Always has, always will because it’s loser tactics, not leader tactics.
Mr. Shaw – you say you want to see more (qualified?) women in more leadership positions. Great, so do I. Here’s a problem, though: many women already in leadership positions or who are successful either a) do not accept the Feminist view of “equality” (fish and birds are NOT equal), b) scoff at the loserish tactics that get employed trying to make their point, or c) at the very least, do not want a bunch of losers at the bottom pretending that they somehow represent them at the top.
Look at how any successful minority has gone from rags to riches and you’ll hear language that is never used at the loser and feeder level of society. Think the successful are worrying or speaking constantly about “trigger alerts”? “Safe rooms”? The Bogeyman-status they’ve elevated “The Patriarchy” or “White Power” into? Not a chance. Do they know Patriarchy is an issue? Sure, but the squatting, condemning, silencing, resentment, the extreme whining that go along with it – they are all tools of those who have earned their place at the bottom and will likely forever stay there, and they don’t get that it’s mostly because of their mindset rather than whatever flavor of the month they’re choosing to blame.
And what qualifies me to make such a statement? I worked with one of one of the largest minority business organizations in the United States for many years. I just spent two weeks in a third-world country helping both men and women start microbusinesses there. I am in minority businesses of all types, all over, all the time and I get paid to know how successful people think as well as knowing what influences them. Think a persecution complex, or some guilt trip influences them? Neither do I, but for some reason “Fair Share” Liberals still seem to.
Last I’ll say is this: I respect Arb for how he – for the most part – will engage in civil dialogue to a degree far more than others do or I would. However look at the comiseration that occurs with the rest of the clan here almost immediately after you’re not “with the (i.e. their) program”. (Comiserating, btw = another loser tactic). Look at the “smart” vs. “powerful” argument at play here, and how those who can’t actually generate any change are happy being one without the other.
Just speaking up for the underdog here. Like I said I don’t share a lot of your beliefs but I believe the key points of what you said deserve more than just ridicule.
LikeLike
January 1, 2016 at 6:28 am
carmen
To VRCaine and Jason Shaw-
Gentlemen,
I don’t always have time to write well-developed responses but I have been thinking of the post since Arb put it on the blog. I want to try to expand on Arb’s theme here because it is an important one. You see, on the news the other day there was a report about a woman who was found dead in her apartment in Nova Scotia (where I live). You know what I thought, with a sinking heart, immediately? “Another domestic abuse victim”. You might want to wonder about why that was, that the first thought that popped into my mind- and probably many others minds who were listening to that news program- was that her partner killed her. And how you probably DON’T think, when you hear of a man being found dead, “Oh, bet his wife killed him”. You see, gentlemen, the worst thing a man has to worry about is that a woman will laugh at him. Women worry about being killed. (Margaret Atwood might have stated it differently)
So, VR Caine, that is why, when Arb takes the time to develop entries like the this one, I give him support. I’d love to be able to “commiserate” on a much larger scale, (even if you do see it as a ‘loser tactic’) believe me, but I am a teacher, a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and community worker. I’m not sure why/how you cannot see how damaging your attitude(s) is/are, but I certainly give kudos to Arb for trying to reach both of you.
Statements like, “I’m an advocate for equality” really ring quite hollow when you basically say, “Women need to be nicer”. I have news for you, VRCaine – women can say it however, whenever, and in whatever way they need to, to get their point across.
I have one grandchild in my bed and a turkey to get ready for the oven. My husband and I will be preparing a New Year’s feast for the family today and I knew if I didn’t get this written now, it wouldn’t get done today. I hope all of you have a lovely celebration with your families, as well.
Just so you know, a further news report (yesterday)confirmed that, indeed, the woman I mentioned earlier was murdered by her partner. As Arb stated above, being nice is NOT going to fix the system.
LikeLiked by 3 people
January 1, 2016 at 9:11 am
The Arbourist
@Carmen
Thread won. Thank you for taking the time to comment Carmen, that was brilliant.
LikeLike
January 24, 2016 at 7:00 am
carmen
@JJ –
Here’s what’s just happened to Emma Watson, whom you feel is ‘approaching feminism in a positive, factual, and inclusive way’.
LikeLiked by 1 person