“Any sex men or women engage in should be within the bounds of husband and wife, legally and lawfully married.”
“Obviously there are additional purposes of sex than procreation alone, such as strengthening the relationship of husband of wife and expressing love within that marriage; however, procreation is certainly one of the main purposes of sex and that should not be taken lightly.”..
“You seem to think people should be allowed to kill children that are unwanted simply because it is easier to let people do that than to teach them proper moral and values; I think you should put a little more effort into seeking the moral option and not the easy way out.”
[Me] “LOL. Religion has been oppressing women since its inception. Maybe citing a book that is famous for its murder, rape, and genocides isn’t the best source to strengthen your case?
Cherry picking your favourite bible verses to make a ‘point’ is about as useful as spitting into the wind, or pissing up a rope. Your choice.”
—–
“Again, I find it very hypocritical that you dare say I am ‘cherry-picking’ bible verses when you scoff and ‘lol’ at the very idea of religion. It couldn’t be more obvious that you haven’t read the bible or other religious text in any recent time, if ever at all; so you have no ground to stand on in saying I ‘cherry-pick’ verses”
Oh hey there cherry picking is what you fucking zealots do to justify your shitty claims about reality.
Let’s take a peek at what the bible says:
“The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).”
Daaaaaamn son. You step back now and think about owning up to the bullshit in your magic book before you get all out of sorts about being called on your cherry-picking. Of course being held to a truthful standard is going to get more painful as this email continues…
“Also, try to remember that America is a Christian nation.”
Holy LoL-copters Batman! America is a secular nation and is founded on the belief that church and state should be two separate entities, although do feel free to keep pining for theocracy.
“Over 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian, so the scripture verses I quote mean a great deal to most people and greatly affects their decision-making processes.”
Billions of horseflies love eating shit, should we also embrace the luscious poo-banquet ideal just because so many do it? Bad ideas are bad ideas – how many people that endorse said (bad) ideas is irrelevant.
“It would be an extremely arrogant prospect to think that you are personally wiser than 86% of the world’s current inhabitants, as well as the billions of people who lived before now, that all came to the conclusion that there is most certainly a God.”
Most thought the earth was flat, the earth was the centre of the universe and knew fuck all about germ theory. Why I’m not accepting their ‘wisdom’ shouldn’t be that hard to piece together. What is more troublesome and more pertinent to the discussion is the fact that *you* do and you seem to be proud of that fact. This is officially Scary-Unhinged-Stuff to those of us who inhabit rational land.
“You appear to identify with the 2.4% of Americans who don’t believe in a God, or the 14% of the world who don’t believe in a God, and that is your choice, but don’t for a second assume that because you personally do not or have not found the value that scriptures hold or found a relationship with God, that others are also unable to find those things.”
Less than two-shits, I say, is all I care about identifying with other people when it comes to living a world based on rationality and evidence rather than superstition and myth. Hey it’s great you have a relationship with your sky-daddy, I hope he tucks you in and changes your nappy at night and gets you warm fucking milk – but believing in bronze age mysticism in the 21st century is no badge of honour. It is about as noble as admitting that yes indeed, you have fart-beans for brains and any coherence you manage to display is just a sad accident.
Dude finally gets back to why autonomy and women shouldn’t mix. Thank you, kind readership, for not glazing over yet the sheer amount of religious-wordfap is positively stultifying.
“According to bodily autonomy, a mother could not be judged harshly for smoking, drinking, doing coke, and going skydiving (hopefully not all in the same day) while 6 months pregnant. If you really believe that a woman’s body is autonomous — that she has absolute jurisdiction over it — then you must defend a mother who does things that could seriously harm her unborn child, even if she hasn’t chosen to abort it.”
Why yes. That thing with breasts and arms and a brain and stuff is not just a walking womb. It is almost like she is human being deserving full human rights and autonomy. But we should get on with your important reasons on why women should be brood-slaves.
“Most pro-aborts will not (vocally) defend abortion at 8 or 9 months. But — if bodily autonomy is your claim — you must. Is a woman’s body less autonomous when she’s been pregnant for 35 weeks? There is no way around it: bodily autonomy means that it is moral to kill a fully formed baby, at seven months, or eight months, or nine months. You say that our bodies cannot be ‘used’ without our ‘consent.’ “
If you believe that women are people then yes, it is her choice whether to remain pregnant or not. You may begin to clutch your pearls now.
“Why should this apply only to pregnancy and organ donations? Children, at any age, create profound demands on their parents’ bodies. Whether it’s waking up in the middle of the night for the crying baby, working long hours to pay for their food and clothing, carrying them around when they cannot walk, staying home when you’d like to go out, going out (to bring them to the doctor, or school, or soccer practice) when you’d like to stay in, etc, etc, etc, and so forth. “
Hmmm…well this might be a complicated answer for you, but when the fetus is in the woman’s body it is her choice whether to keep it or not. Once born, the exclusive use of a mother’s body is over and thus other external actors can care for the child. So yah, I hope you’re not going the false equivalence on top of a false equivalency argument. Let me review your first fail and append the second that I just bet you’re going for – because this is a long article –
1. A fetus is not a child
2. Before birth and after birth are functionally different states.
“An argument for absolute bodily autonomy means that it can’t be illegal, or considered immoral, for a parent to decline to do any of these things, so long as their decision was made in the name of bodily autonomy.”
Game, set and Match?? Hmmm… Apparently you are that fucking dense. Way to try and compare apples to octopuses. Parental responsibilities to their children (because they are born now, separate entities) are not the same as a woman’s pregnancy. [meta thought: The fact that this needs to explained is troubling.] [meta-meta thought: Arguing with the religiously deluded is like trying get a close shave with a banana.]
“If I can ‘do what I want with my body,’ then it becomes very difficult to launch a salient moral or legal attack against a man who chooses to sit in a playground in front of children and pleasure his own body. I’m often accused of oversimplifying, but I’ve never oversimplified to the extent of you bodily autonomy proponents.”
This shit is rock-solid argumentative GOLD! If you ignore context. And reality. And the structure of good arguments…
“Once we’ve considered every complexity and nuance, we can rightly say that our bodies are autonomous in some ways, and in some circumstances, but not in others. We cannot say that they are absolutely autonomous, and I find it hard to believe that anyone truly thinks that.”
Because apparently fapping in public is the same issue as whether a woman is a incubator slave or not. OH religion! You are sooo silly when you try and talk all rational and stuff.
Here comes some amazing reasoning. Just let it wash over you, like toddler up-chuck.
“Any claim or responsibility placed on me, automatically includes a claim and responsibility on my body. Everything I do involves my body. I am my body. CS Lewis would say that I am my soul and I have a body. I agree with him, but for our purposes in this discussion, leaving souls and spirits aside, we are our bodies. Whether we are expected to pay taxes or drive the speed limit or provide a safe and sanitary home for our children, we are using our bodies to meet these expectations. We experience and participate in life with our bodies. Absolute bodily autonomy is inexorably linked with personal autonomy. If my body is autonomous, my person must be autonomous, and if my person is autonomous, then my very existence is autonomous, and if my very existence is autonomous, then it is simply unacceptable and (by your logic) immoral for anyone to expect me to do anything for anyone at any point for any reason.”
1.*Le Sigh* – CS Lewis.
2. Taxes and driving the speed limit – social constructs not autonomous obligations.
3. “ it is simply unacceptable and (by your logic) immoral for anyone to expect me to do anything for anyone at any point for any reason.” – Free will; what the fuck is it?!?!?
This argument seems a little to pat to be coming from your typical anti-choice zealot. The ‘gotcha’ at the end is, on the surface, compelling, but only if don’t worry about the little things – burden of proof, arguing charitably, et cetra.
“If you concede that we ought to be expected or even required to do certain things, then you are placing limits on our bodily autonomy. If you place limits on our bodily autonomy, then you are admitting that limits can be placed on our bodily autonomy. If you are admitting that limits can be placed on our bodily autonomy, then you must consider whether abortion falls within or outside of those limits. And here’s the rub: if you contend that abortion falls within the limits on bodily autonomy, you must justify that belief beyond simply reasserting our right to bodily autonomy.”
Wow. The knock down argument of the day….*sigh* This ‘argument’ was lifted from another anti-choice douche – Matt Walsh. Of course, it is bullshit and refuted in full here. I’ll reproduce the conclusion – meeting copypasta with copypasta. The next quote from the Daily Kos article:
“And again, Matt’s got his burden of proof all wrong. It’s not up to pro-choicers to prove that a woman should be able to decide when and if she will be pregnant. It’s up to pro-lifers to prove that she shouldn’t – because that’s their position. When people say that a person’s right to free speech should be curbed in relation to inciting mass panics, we can (and have) present(ed) good reasons as to why this is the case. When we say that a person’s right to bear arms can be curbed if that person is a violent felon, good reasons have been provided. When we tell Matt’s masturbating man to stay away from playgrounds, we have good reasons for limiting that use of bodily autonomy or expression. But Matt is alleging that a woman’s right to bodily autonomy should be limited inside of pregnancy; and every bit of evidence he provided for that is nonsense that crumbles under the slightest honest scrutiny.
I don’t have to prove that it’s wrong to limit my free speech; the person trying to do the limiting has to prove why it’s right. I don’t have to prove that it’s wrong to take away my ability to make my own medical decisions; the person trying to take that power from me has to prove that it’s right. I don’t have to prove that it’s wrong to incarcerate me; the person attempting to do so has to prove that it’s the right choice. And I don’t have to prove that it’s wrong to limit my choice to be pregnant or not; that falls to the person trying to do the limiting.
Though the burden of proof is on him, Matt didn’t prove his case.”
So, my religiously-deluded-christian-pro-patriarchy-hack, funtime is almost over. The christian fart-beans you shat out – cheekily masquarading as arguments – have been humanely put down and thus, the religious shit-show is concluding…
“I mean you no ill-will and I fully support your right to an opinion, I simply hope that my comments have shed some light on the weak foundation your current opinion stands. I wish you the best and hope you will come to see truth in its proper light.”
Umm…your comments had shed light on where your arguments are coming from: straight out of your ass.
21 comments
August 9, 2015 at 6:19 am
Steve Ruis
Re “It would be an extremely arrogant prospect to think that you are personally wiser than 86% of the world’s current inhabitants, as well as the billions of people who lived before now, that all came to the conclusion that there is most certainly a God.”
This is a bit of a specious argument as the three religions included who claim to serve the same god (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) can’t agree on what god that is? So this dude is counting polytheists to back up his argument in his god? Passing weird.
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August 9, 2015 at 7:44 am
The Arbourist
@Steven Ruis
I wasn’t really sure how to answer that one – I mean how do you respond to someone rationally who says that ‘well obviously’ my invisible friend is the best one out there just look at all the other lemmings who have bought into this fairy tale, we cannot possibly be wrong…
Face palming only goes so far you know? :)
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August 9, 2015 at 7:57 am
john zande
Good Lawd! There’s just too much here to respond to, not least of all his cartoon “percentages”. None’s now constitute 30% of the US population, not 2.4%.
I think I’ll pop over and comment later on his blog. We’ll see how responsive he is to a rational debate.
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August 9, 2015 at 8:02 am
The Arbourist
@JZ
Not very, as this was an email response to me because I’m assuming that my terrible words – women as people – would not go over well as a comment on his blog.
It’s a long one today, but I haven’t engaged with a religious anti-choicer for awhile.
Giving only a partial reading to the lunacy wouldn’t be right.
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August 9, 2015 at 8:31 am
john zande
Arb, this is a brilliant article to keep in the “Confront Lunacy With Facts” File.
Click to access brain_waves.pdf
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August 9, 2015 at 8:45 am
The Arbourist
@JZ
Nice article. Thank you and consider it bookmarked.
It seems to be the case with most ‘facts’ brought into the debate from the anti-choice position is that they are bollocks at worse and inaccurate at best.
Where many of their arguments gain strength is through mindless repetition, usually by non-specialists, whose critical faculties are underdeveloped.
Have you seen the paper that really tears into the godly anti-choice position. I may have mentioned it before. It’s called The Scourge and does a charitably vicious attack on much of the religious objection to abortion.
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August 9, 2015 at 8:50 am
john zande
Brilliant.
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August 9, 2015 at 8:52 am
john zande
Well, I left a comment, let’s see if he can actually put some public meat behind his stance
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August 9, 2015 at 8:54 am
The Arbourist
@JZ
Unlikely, but full marks for trying. :)
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August 9, 2015 at 9:43 am
Stew
Religion is not your problem, nor is it for your Christian friend; it is actually the god thing which deserves that (dis)honor. After all, we are all followers of one thing or another throughout our lives, sometimes together, sometimes alone and sometimes that thing may be as insignificant as a single blog, one voice out of millions.
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August 9, 2015 at 10:24 am
thnkfryrslf
You did a great job in challenging this bible thumpers rhetoric. I won’t call what he is saying as arguments. these are just beliefs accepted on faith not requiring any proofs. What he is spewing is pure dogma. Without any logic or existential reference, he’s free to say anything he wants. No facts, no proof, no reason, just dreary dogma and bible quotes. He shut his mind down long ago. No need to think when you can quote from the bible, be a part of a big herd and not have to be governed by any rules of reality and at the same time take the moral high ground. What bothers me is that in the 21st century the social discourse is now ruled by religion. The dogma of the day indicates to me the intellectual bankruptcy of particularly the American culture. We have a PM and many in his party who believe this dogma. Where does that leave us? In a cultural wasteland I think. I feel sometimes that we’re living in the 12th century. What this moron also is essentially saying is that womans rights don;t matter, reality doesn;t matter, thinking doesn’t matter, truth doesn’t matter and ethics don’t matter. The world is what I say it is and it will do what I tell it to do. Behind every ant-abortionist ordering a women to do what she can or cannot do with her body is a big or small dictator. He wants to have power over woman. I admire you for taking him on. Bet you had to take a shower when you were finished.
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August 9, 2015 at 10:34 am
The Arbourist
@thnkfryslf
Thank you. :)
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August 9, 2015 at 2:52 pm
syrbal-labrys
Men of the ilk to pull all these sparkly shit-bunnies out of religious ass-crack hats to justify treating women as things don’t WANT to get it. Mind you, they might be capable of catching a freaking hint IF and only if every action in THEIR lives were suddenly under a microscope to be examined in the light of “Does this harm your little egg impregnators – the sperm?” If they had the experience of having to curtail their every bloody choice for a change they might wake the fuck up!
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August 9, 2015 at 2:53 pm
syrbal-labrys
WE all have choice over what thing or other to follow. I find it impossible to blame something non-existent for the bad actions of those choosing to believe in something non-existent.
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August 9, 2015 at 2:58 pm
The Arbourist
@Syrbal
LoL. :) I may have to borrow some of your invective. :)
Sadly, many men don’t have a clue about how different everyday life is for women. They live under the incorrect assumption it must be something like theirs, only pinker and prettier. :(
Doubtful. As always, radical feminist Revolution is the answer to the problem of clueless dudes. :>
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August 9, 2015 at 2:59 pm
syrbal-labrys
I want to be the Feminist Dominatrix in charge of wake-up calls in the New-please-any-day- World order, ok?
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August 9, 2015 at 3:01 pm
The Arbourist
@Syrbal
Done and done. :) There is nothing quite like a feminist dominatrix wake up call.
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August 9, 2015 at 3:05 pm
syrbal-labrys
::::smiles::::
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August 9, 2015 at 7:01 pm
john zande
Well, we had a chat. Pop over and see. I think he’s just another victim of terrible US education, or perhaps homeschooling?
LikeLiked by 1 person
August 9, 2015 at 7:12 pm
The Arbourist
@JZ
Well that exchange was remarkably civil. Although the results are the same – dude believes in magic and really all those nasty facts you keep mentioning are like water off of a duck’s back.
At least with my patented slash and burn method, you get to have some fun in the process. :)
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August 10, 2015 at 11:58 am
Sedate Me
“It would be an extremely arrogant prospect to think that you are personally wiser than 86% of the world’s current inhabitants…that all came to the conclusion that there is most certainly a God.”
Has this guy ever met “people”?
I don’t consider declaring yourself smarter than 86% of the population REMOTELY arrogant. If you’re not smarter than 86% of the population, you are a complete fucktard! You should probably have a hockey helmet on at all times and a drool guard to make sure you don’t choke on your own drool.
And it’s getting worse, not better. Not only can’t people find the corner store without Google, they can’t even put on their Velcro shoes on anymore without Siri giving step-by-step instructions. Perhaps Siri is the God that 86% of the population believe in.
Fuck, people don’t even know when they’re thirsty anymore! These “geniuses” are about to get filthy rich for designing a water bottle that tells your phone (which you never let go of because, without it, you might as well be in a coma) that you should take a drink of water. Yes, it’s come to that!
http://www.q1043.com/onair/jim-kerr-rock-roll-morning-show-11641/is-this-the-most-useless-invention-13648932/
Not only are these folks (non-ironically) making the news, people actually GAVE them several times the money they were looking for. Within a year or two, the “geniuses” at Google will buy their company for a couple billion dollars.
Because most people really ARE that stupid.
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