Canadian cogitations about politics, social issues, and science. Vituperation optional.
Short, sweet and to the point –
“Pornography is the graphic representation, not just of violence against women, but of male supremacy. It degrades all women. It erodes the humanity of all women. Porn use fetishizes violence and supports male supremacy. Porn is the expression of patriarchy. Porn use is the practice of patriarchy.”
-Twisty, from I Blame the Patriarchy.
Discuss in the comments section.
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17 comments
February 21, 2012 at 4:41 pm
bleatmop
Interesting quote, one from what I would be completely unsurprised to learn is a second wave feminist. I personally find such dyadic, black and white thinking to be unhelpful. Third wave feminists that I have read have not been so negative against porn in principle, although they definitely have serious criticism of the industry in general as it does have serious issues.
I found this article to be a more nuanced, insightful vision of what reality should and does look like:
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/23/feminist-porn-sex-consent-and-getting-off/
An excerpt:
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February 21, 2012 at 4:54 pm
The Arbourist
Interesting point of view Bleat. I’m still on the fence where I fall on this issue. I read the article you linked to and found a few things I agree with and few things that I do not.
I’m still putting together my thoughts on this one, but I’m thinking, right now, that the sex-positive p.o.v expressed in the feministe article glosses over a lot of the *ick* that patriarchy brings to pornography and the consumption thereof.
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February 21, 2012 at 9:53 pm
fhg1893
What kind of argument is Twisty Faster making? Is it an ethical argument? An statement about the law? Or is it strictly a cultural observation, one with a great deal of political agenda-mongering being left deliberately unsaid?
Is there a distinction to be made between pornography and erotica, or is all smut equally worthy of contempt? Does said contempt extend for instance to genres involving female domination of males?
If pornography erodes the humanity of all women, then are men not similarly debased?
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February 21, 2012 at 10:54 pm
The Arbourist
What kind of argument is Twisty Faster making?
“It [pornography] degrades all women. It erodes the humanity of all women.”
I believe the thesis is stated above.
Or is it strictly a cultural observation, one with a great deal of political agenda-mongering being left deliberately unsaid?
A little confused as to what you mean by this. Political agenda mongering?
Is there a distinction to be made between pornography and erotica, or is all smut equally worthy of contempt?
“Porn use fetishizes violence and supports male supremacy.” – I am thinking if it does neither of the above, it would be categorized as not pornography.
Does said contempt extend for instance to genres involving female domination of males?
The idea that femdom is someone different is fairly common. Unfortunately, femdom, like other forms of porn is still meant for the male audience and dude-centric the norms of patriarchy are still enforced.
If pornography erodes the humanity of all women, then are men not similarly debased?
Oh probably, but men to a lesser extent, as men are not members of the sex class, hence can opt out of the exploitation when they see fit.
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February 21, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Rob F
Just like with prostitution and sex work, pornography is controversial among feminists and therefore any generalization of the “one, true feminist position” concerning it cannot be made (unless you use one’s position on pornography to define “feminist”). Pornography misrepresents the reality of sexuality (real people aren’t eternally promiscuous). Many bad things do happen in the pornography business and much of it objectifies women. Everyone ought to speak out against those things.
And yet there is an increasingly large amount of “alternative” or “feminist pornography”. In addition, sexual repressiveness, to call it something, like that forced by soconism, creates an environment where sexual abuse and rape thrive. Hence, if pornography leads someone to explore their sexuality in a manner that does not harm other it ought to be encouraged. In the 1970s and 1980s, a number of feminists joined forces with the religious right to fight pornography. With the benefit of hindsight this was a big mistake.
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February 22, 2012 at 6:59 am
fhg1893
Restating the argument does not answer the question. But on second thought, I suspect there is no argument here at all. I think it’s a statement of opinion, and decidedly not an argument. But, I’ll extend the benefit of the doubt, at least for the moment.
Once again, what KIND of argument is being made here? I presume it’s not a legal argument sicne I see no citing of case law, or legal principle. Nor does it appear to be an ethical argument – there is no perscription for “right” action. Which suggests the question, is it an argument at all?
If it is not an argument, but is an opinion, then is it really worth discussing? What can be done meaningfully, other than to simply count up the number who agree and disagree?
A little confused as to what you mean by this. Political agenda mongering?
Feminism is a political agenda. I suspect that the statement is made in an attempt to increase opposition to pornography, but that’s not explicit in the statement; it’s strongly implied. Our minds are left to “fill in the gap,” which suggests that this is an attempt to boost support for a certain political agenda: feminism.
“Porn use fetishizes violence and supports male supremacy.” – I am thinking if it does neither of the above, it would be categorized as not pornography.
Without placing clear boundaries on what constitutes pornography, the original statement is hopelessly open to interpretation. As I asked, where does pornography start, and where does pornography stop? Unless the sexual act its self is inherently violent, then without a clear definition of pornography, pornography cannot be said to fetishize violence, and the original statement is simply false. As for supporting “male supremacy” that statement is I think, hopelessly subjective. What WOULDN’T support male supremacy? ANYTHING could be constructed to support male supremacy. A person could argue that they don’t like trees because they’re a phallic representation and therefore, support male supremacy. Obviously, that’s absurd. The statement, as written is meaningless without further definition, or explanaiton. Some have argued that all heterosexual sex is inherently an act of violence. If this is true, then all graphic depictions of heterosexual sexual acts involving real human beings are pornography. But, by what objective standard can one determine whether heterosexual sex is an act of violence? There are some tools which can provide guidance of course; the presence or absence of consent for one. But consent isn’t sufficient for some, and nothing has been achieved. Without an objective standard, this statement cannot be evaluated.
The idea that femdom is someone different is fairly common. Unfortunately, femdom, like other forms of porn is still meant for the male audience and dude-centric the norms of patriarchy are still enforced.
So, are graphic depictions of sexual acts made by photographing real human beings, which are directed towards a male audience the culprit? That’s not at all satisfying.
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February 22, 2012 at 6:46 pm
bleatmop
I’m not sure I agree that the article glosses over the ick that the patriarchy currently brings to porn. She outright admits all the ick the the vast majority of porn in the quote I put above. I don’t think she needs to dedicate 2 or 3 paragraphs detailing what’s wrong with the current porn industry because that’s not what her post was about. It was about where porn and other sex work could be if it was brought into the light of day and the exploitation removed. She also gave a couple examples of what that would look like.
But perhaps I am misunderstand by what you mean as ick?
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February 22, 2012 at 8:08 pm
The Arbourist
From the Feministe article –
Versus from IBTP –
I’m not giving the ASA (arbourists seal of approval) to either argument at the moment, as both points of view offer a great deal come with some rather complex assumptions and conclusions built in.
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February 22, 2012 at 9:34 pm
bleatmop
“Sex can never be a politically neutral interaction as long as the interests of one party are by universal decree prioritized over the interests of the other”
I think Twisty is either adept making blanket statements where they are not justified or her entire argument would logically fall upon itself by finding a single couple where the sexual interests do not have one interest prioritized over the other. Either way it makes her arguments less persuasive to me. I read the post you linked to and she goes on a wonderful rant. And like most rants, it seems heavy on emotion and little on substance.
For instance, she say that “Pornography is the graphic representation, not just of violence against women, but of male supremacy.” Ok, how? First off, she is taking about pornography, not the pornography industry. She wants to take shots at the large percent of that industry that commits insane evils, so be it. But that’s the industry and she is talking about pornography in principle.
Isn’t pornography simply two people having sex, filming that sex and then selling it? Which part of that is the violence towards women? The filming it? Is taking pictures of women violence against them too? The selling off said images? I can’t see how. Then is it the intercourse? Does that mean all intercourse is violence against women, at least when there is at least one woman involved in the intercourse? Or is it only when there is a camera and a monitisation scheme involved? And if so, what is it about the synergistic effect of these three items that would make it violent towards women?
I’m not trying to be flippant here at all. I mean, for me to consider her claims, I would have to know the answer to these questions.
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February 23, 2012 at 10:59 am
The Arbourist
I think Twisty is either adept making blanket statements where they are not justified or her entire argument would logically fall upon itself by finding a single couple where the sexual interests do not have one interest prioritized over the other.
I think that may be part of her point, that Patriarchy infests every aspect of lives. How do you get away from something that is in everything and is everywhere? One would be hard pressed to find that black swan of a couple that does not have bits of P sprinkled in there.
But that’s the industry and she is talking about pornography in principle.
So which principle of pornography does not include violence against women? There are a couple of base assumptions that need to be in place for the kind of argument Twisty is making for her argument to make sense. The first and most important distinction would be that there are different classes of people in the patriarchy, the men and the women. The men hold the dominant position running society, setting standards, making the rules etcetera. Women are the second class and the sex class who, to fit into patriarchal society must conform to the rules to get ahead whether it is in their best interests or not.
So, pornography defined as what is sexy and erotic to look at has been defined by the patriarchal normative system to meet the needs of the patriarchs. Women’s role in pornography is defined by the male-gaze and thus does do violence to women because it reinforces their status in the sex class as opposed to full card carrying members of the human race.
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February 23, 2012 at 11:10 am
bleatmop
So which principle of pornography does not include violence against women?
Perhaps principle was the wrong word to use. Perhaps essence would have been more descriptive? I was not trying to imply that porn has principles. But I is this part of my post that I think would be the correct response that your question.
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February 23, 2012 at 11:11 am
bleatmop
whoa. I messed up the block quotes there. Can you help me out arb?
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February 23, 2012 at 11:16 am
The Arbourist
Done and done. :>
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February 23, 2012 at 11:20 am
bleatmop
Thank you good sir!
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February 23, 2012 at 2:32 pm
Rob F
What do you think of male homosexual pornography?
The most of criticisms leveled against pornography wouldn’t apply to male homosexual pornography. However, the one I mentioned (it misrepresents the nature of sexuality) would.
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February 25, 2012 at 1:35 pm
The Arbourist
Do you think so? Male homosexual pornography seems to thrive on the proscribed roles of our patriarchal society. I’m not sure how it could escape criticism as message and effects are mostly likely similar to that of the hetporn mentioned in the post.
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February 25, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Rob F
I was under the impression that homosexuality went against the proscribed roles of patriarchal societies, hence their condemnation of it. Male homosexual pornography by “displaying” (to somehow phrase) would do the same.
The above is pure speculation, since I’m not gay and have never looked at pornography.
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