Watching stupid people do and say stupid things in Texas. Admittedly, low hanging fruit, but great fodder for low blogging weeks. :)
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13 comments
July 28, 2011 at 9:15 pm
Vern R. Kaine
I really, really, really wish the Republicans could put a solid candidate up that wasn’t ideologically kookie or have some tragic flaw. If anything, just for a good fight come election time.
I’d even take a movie-style candidate or President. Someone like Tom Cruise’s character in Lions for Lambs, or Harrison Ford’s in Air Force One.
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July 30, 2011 at 8:41 am
The Arbourist
Is that even possible Vern? The republican party’s platform is so corrosive in its present state how can you get anything else but the whackaloon, fundamentally stupid people running for it? There was a time when conservatism did not meat batshite crazy, and I miss those times because progressive ideologies need to be tempered occasionally with a bit of reserve and alternative points of view.
The republicans now are the party of the religiously and intellectually deluded poor pulling for ideas that make them more poor and that will make the rich more rich, its madness!
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July 30, 2011 at 4:00 pm
TheUnrepublican
I agree that the GOP have the poor singing their praises on their way to bread line, but let’s not forget that the GOP doesn’t always equal christian, and liberal doesn’t always signify non-christian.
It is imposing, hateful, and bigoted to state that being a christian is a character flaw. Christians have every right to practice their religion in peace. For you to assume that your belief that christians are deluded is of any more value than the beliefs put forth by fundamentalists is hypocritical and down right despicable.
True, you may feel that that the evidence, or lack thereof, puts you in the right. But remember, even that is merely your interpretation.
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July 30, 2011 at 5:23 pm
The Arbourist
Christians have every right to practice their religion in peace.
Which is fine until they impose their values on the rest of society, which of course is not fine.
For you to assume that your belief that christians are deluded is of any more value than the beliefs put forth by fundamentalists is hypocritical and down right despicable.
There is a false equivalence running through this particular argument. One camp believes in ideas without evidence, and that would be considered delusional behaviour. The other is grounded in reality based on the best version of knowledge we have available. Quite dissimilar, and should not be considered equivalent.
True, you may feel that that the evidence, or lack thereof, puts you in the right.
Actually following the evidence and basing your decisions on the available data does put one in the right (or at least in touch with reality). It is not a feeling, but rather, fact.
But remember, even that is merely your interpretation.
Given reasonable judgement, my non-mystical interpretation is more likely closer to reality than the beliefs of those who follow the ideas about the sky-daddy and his zombie minion jeebus.
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July 30, 2011 at 7:15 pm
Vern R. Kaine
With Christie, perhaps, but he’s smart enough not to run. Otherwise, I honestly don’t know.
But for the record, the Dems are doing a fine job on their own of making the rich more rich. Exhibit 1: General Electric. Exhibit 2: Two words invoked by the Dems that are a joke in the U.S.: “Financial Reform”. Even if they do manage to tax the ‘rich’, they’ll leave so many loopholes behind them it won’t even matter. The only difference between the Republicans and Democrats in that matter is that the Republicans will openly say they’re making the rich richer. The Dems will do it by lying to the general public and say that they’re not by invoking b.s. financial and tax “reforms” that deliberately have more holes in them than swiss cheese. That’s half the reason the tax code is so complicated in the U.S. in the first place.
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July 30, 2011 at 8:31 pm
The Arbourist
I certainly would not paint the Democrats as saviors by any stretch of the imagination, they are both parties of the business class and the policies that issue forth from both camps are reflective of who is calling the shots.
The only difference between the Republicans and Democrats in that matter is that the Republicans will openly say they’re making the rich richer.
So how is voting for the lesser of two evils working out? :) I mean, at least we have 3 evils in Canada, good heavens I’ve even voted for the evil socialist menace myself.
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July 31, 2011 at 4:22 am
TheUnrepublican
Actually, no. You have no right to act as if people have a tragic character flaw based on their personal beliefs. Let us not forget that the vast majority of our founding fathers would have been eliminated from consideration by you on the basis of having “a tragic character flaw”, faith.
You say that the evidence puts you in the right, but christians see it differently. Christians belief that the evidence testifies to their right standing. What makes your opinion any more valid, let alone to the degree of calling them deluded? They believe you are deluded. And?
It is only natural to fight for what you believe in, to strive to change the world around you according to what you feel is right. Just as you strive to marginalize christianity and it’s influence on society, christians strive to influence society based on their beliefs. It is a very basic human characteristic to try and change things, and to want to deny christians their fundamental right to do the same on the basis of differing opinion is a gross violation, and quite frankly, wicked.
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July 31, 2011 at 7:49 am
Vern R. Kaine
good heavens I’ve even voted for the evil socialist menace myself.”
Good thing conservatives were able to offset that vote so Canada could continue to be so strong financially and have such a great future ahead of it. Haha! :) In all seriousness, though, it’s been great to watch Canada come out of the U.S.’s shadow and shine so brightly as of late.
I think two elections or so back Canada had its “identity crisis”. The two primary things that seemed to be “Canadian”, health care + gun control, were in turmoil while America seemed to prosper.
Now I think the tables are turned. Two things that seem to represent America, capitalism and freedom, are now in turmoil while Canada is prospering. (Largely self-inflicted) events have now forced Americans to decide amongst themselves what is truly “American” anymore. Individual rights are constantly being eroded with freedoms being taken away, democracy + plutocracy + elements of fascism + capitalism have created this ugly, unrecognizable monster, and we can add religion vs. gay rights/religion vs. atheist rights to that as well.
There’s been a serious breakdown in the U.S., but in nature everything breaks down and then reassembles into a higher order, right? America has always found a way to innovate, pull through, and evolve. I have faith, but right now, it’s a leap.
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July 31, 2011 at 8:29 am
The Arbourist
You have no right to act as if people have a tragic character flaw based on their personal beliefs.
Since when is believing in sexy-time with ghosts and zombies not a tragic character flaw? No really, I’m kinda curious now because people believe in a lot of stupid things, religion just being one of many. If they keep it to themselves and let their rationality predominate when dealing with the rest of the society that is perfectly acceptable. Where it should not be is in the business of the state, or the public schools or anywhere else where important decisions are made.
You say that the evidence puts you in the right, but christians see it differently.
Then bring forth the evidence that contradicts mine and show how it is a better representation of reality, and I will be all aboard. The problem is, that currently, that evidence does not exist.
What makes your opinion any more valid, let alone to the degree of calling them deluded?
What kinda of relativistic joyride are you partaking in here? Statements that are closer to, or describe reality more accurately are generally considered better and more useful. How did the lampshade just move? Was it A) angels must have moved it, as its part of gods plan…. or B) Oh, the window was open and a breeze must have done it.
“B” is the correct answer as it involves no magic, no belief and no fairy-tales. If you want to believe in “A” be my guest, but be prepared to be ridiculed because believing in magic in the 21st century is backward, archaic and delusional.
It is only natural to fight for what you believe in, to strive to change the world around you according to what you feel is right.
Horsepucky. According to what you feel is right? How about what society says is right? There is a division of religion and state precisely because of arguments like this, to keep antiquated, fantastic beliefs out of the running of a state because the world does not work on magic and mysticism, but rather factual information and empirical evidence (in theory). Because unless you live alone (we’re talking on a island or in the backwoods here) your personal feelings about changing the world around you are insignificant.
to want to deny christians their fundamental right to do the same on the basis of differing opinion is a gross violation, and quite frankly, wicked.
When the ideas and changes to society are malignant and evil, quite simply put christians are just plain wrong, and those particular ideas do not deserve to be in the public domain of society. Just like the bad ideas of other identifiable groups. If you wish to continue the delusional behaviour and brainwashing of the next generation in private, please continue. But expect to be called out when you try to apply your mystic prescriptions to the real world and expect to be derided when you attempt to speak with authority on a myriad of topics; morality, sexuality and science just to name a few.
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July 31, 2011 at 10:21 am
The Arbourist
There’s been a serious breakdown in the U.S., but in nature everything breaks down and then reassembles into a higher order, right? America has always found a way to innovate, pull through, and evolve. I have faith, but right now, it’s a leap.
One postulate might be that there has been an inversion of the values that many think that North Americans hold dear. Now according to John McMurty ideas such as “free trade” have been inverted as what “free trade” looks like today is several multinationals trading within their spheres of influence and accounting for 60% of the supposedly “free trade” interactions. Consider how much closer the idea of “freedom and democracy” are to the idea of authoritarian oligarchy than actual democracy and freedom…
I’ve started reading his book Value Wars and it is causing quite a bit of dissonance for me as he seems to be a little 9/11 truthy orientated, which is disconcerting, yet past his dense prose what he proposes economically seems reasonable. I’m currently looking for reviews of his work to in an attempt to establish whether he is a crank or not.
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July 31, 2011 at 5:04 pm
TheUnrepublican
“What kinda of relativistic joyride are you partaking in here? Statements that are closer to, or describe reality more accurately are generally considered better and more useful.”
And who or what is the deciding factor on what exactly is more useful and more akin to reality?
You?
Or people who believe like YOU(the logical ones)?
Says who?
Yes, master.
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August 1, 2011 at 11:35 am
The Arbourist
And who or what is the deciding factor on what exactly is more useful and more akin to reality? You?
Yep. Me. I consider myself at least a quasi rational being able to make decisions based on the reality around me given to me by brain via my senses. There has to be a point where you can say that “X is better than Y” based on the evidence a,b,c.
I understand cultural relativism, I really do. But when forming ethical opinion one should not consult only one moral system. Consider the deontological and utilitarian points of view as well and try to bring as much relevant information to bear as possible on the issue.
Or people who believe like YOU(the logical ones)? Says who?
It feels like you are still conflating religion and rational thought. I do not ask anyone to ‘believe’ in anything I say, or take my propositions at face value. The propositions I put forth are usually predicated on verifiable facts and knowledge that others can check out and determine for themselves whether I am bullshitting or not. Consider the relative value of exiting the front door versus the upstairs window, both achieve the same end, but one method is clearly better than the other and evidence for determining this fact is available to all. This process lies at the heart of critical thinking and rationality;and sadly is not part of a good deal of religious thought.
Yes, master.
I’m not saying *you* should adopt a more rational stance toward reality, you can choose to be as ignorant and deluded as you would like. But, when you put forth ideas in a public forum that are based on magical thinking and unwarranted belief, I will call you on it, because bad ideas (like religion) need to be discussed, exposed and ridiculed (and ultimately discarded) so we can move on without the shackles of myth and the supernatural fearfully holding us back.
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August 2, 2011 at 8:02 am
TheUnrepublican
So you say that we should move on without the shackles of myth (id est religion). What if religious people do not want to move on (as you describe it)? Do they deserve to be ridiculed for their faith? And what comes next? Outright persecution? And would you fight for them if it came to that?
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